This paper explores the dynamic interface of state-water users relationships in large scale surface irrigation in India and China, to inquire (with Wittfogel looking over our shoulder) to what extent the issues encountered in large scale irrigation management and governance are independent of regime characteristics. Though operating in very different overall political regimes, China and India exhibit strong similarities in the way a central state has attempted to relate with local water users (and enrol them into state led development), in the types of policy instruments deployed to shape that relationship, and in the problems encountered. Both China and India have a long history of state involvement in irrigation management. Both saw massive expansion after the late 1940s, with India adapting and adopting the models developed in the colonial period and China opting for a modified Stalinist model. There has been a historical tendency to extend state water control further down in response to 'underutilisation' of the created infrastructure, revenue shortfalls and perceived inefficiencies and yield gaps. In recent decades the policy approaches have, at least rhetorically, emphasised water users self-management and governance, including financial selfmanagement/cost recovery. In both countries the instrument for this since the late 1970s/early 1980s has been the establishment of WUAs (Water Users Associations). Results have been mixed, to say the least, on all counts. Larger institutional and policy characteristics adhering to the problematic of the state-user interface subvert stated reform objectives.